N97EZ Rebuild

[kaylee s]

Hello all!

First post here. I have just purchased Long EZ N97EZ, originally built by Joe Lacour in the 80's. 97EZ went down in a field in 2010 after an engine failure. She's changed hands a few times since then, but nobody has started to rebuild her yet.

The plane comes with a new molded nose, Roncz canard foam core, a few sets of main gear hoops, and some other new parts for the rebuild. I think the first job after taking everything apart will be building and installing a new F22 bulkhead. Then onto building a new canard. It's going to be fun!

You can check out my new site I just posted, I'll be using it as my build log!

http://kayleebuilds.com

https://kayleebuilds.com/2024/07/13/july-12th-2024-its-real/

-Kaylee

[Kent Ashton]

I looked at all your pictures.  Yes, it can certainly be rebuilt but having built a Cozy and EZ myself and extensively refurbished, re-wired and re-painted a Cozy III I would say it will turn out to be more work than building from scratch.  There is a good reason why the previous buyers passed on rebuilding it.  The trouble will come when you decide you want it to look good and end up rebuilding, repainting and fixing things that might be flyable as is but if you do a slap-dash job, you may not be happy with the result and the resale value of a rebuilt airplane is often much lower.

I understand this might be discouraging to hear but you might make a full list of everything that needs to be rebuilt, refurbished and note what is involved for each item.  Discuss these items with some experienced builders if you can find some.  For example, you may want to repaint the airplane which is a bigger job than painting it originally.  It will have to be stripped--a big job, refilled with micro, sanded, pinholes dealt with, primed, taped, sanded more, taped, painted.  Lots of hard work.   You would probably strip out all the wiring and rewire.  That can take weeks to plan and install new wiring.   Then their will be areas where you say "I can do this better" or install something differently which will be more work than doing it on a scratch-built airplane.

Yeah, the work can be fun but It's going to be a huge, long process and frankly, my friend, I think I would let go of the prize and try to get my hand out of the jar.

You have some valuable parts that could be sold.

BTW, I have a friend who bought a Cozy in 2016.  He tore the nose off while taxi-testing (long story there) but as he rebuilt it he found many things he need to fix, refinish or change to suit him.  Turns out the original builder was not that good  He is still not flying and might be several more years.

Edited July 15 by Kent Ashton

[kaylee s]

Thanks for the insight! One thing that really drew me to this particular project was it's pedigree. N97EZ won some awards in the 90's - and I believe no shortcuts were taken in her construction. She was stunning! If one is worth rebuilding, I believe it's this one.

Worst case scenario. I bought a pile of parts and a useable set of wings. I have no doubt I have a lot of hard work in my future.

I'm fortunate to be friends with some very experienced EZ builders who will guide me through this project. They have offered to help build too! Maybe you're right and the fuselage is not worth saving and I start from scratch. We'll see.

Curious about your take on repainting. Why does it need to be totally stripped to the glass and re-microed? Why can't one just sand down the paint and primer, treating it as a "filler" and prime and paint over top?

Edited July 16 by kaylee s

[Kent Ashton]

I might have been too negative about rebuilding.  If so, sorry.

If you can identify the paint maybe you can get away with buffing the original paint and spot-painting repaired areas.  I have had to repaint areas of my airplane from time-to-time after repairs and they look decent.   After all, body shops do that all the time.  I imagine a quality paint job was done in a urethane, which is a tough paint to sand off.

The easy way would be to make repairs, fill and prime them, match the topcoat, buff-out both the old and new paint and you might find that quite satisfactory.

My first Cozy--an early build--was painted in an enamel over a black high-carbon primer suggested by Rutan for UV blockage.  The primer did not stick very well and the enamel was quite brittle.  I could scrape the paint and primer off easily but it required re-filling.  I hope you will have better luck.

[James Bailey]

Hi Kent,

I hope life is going well for you..

I had a chance to speak with Kaylee recently..very impressive young lady..she actually was working for NASCAR there in concord as an engineer before taking her current assignment ..as for the long ez..I am in no way able to provide her any guidance but I know with your experience and recommendations as well as the California experienced guys she has an enormous amount of real talent to guide her on her journey and has an outstanding chance of success 

[Aclouston]

Hi Kaylee

Welcome to these strange yet exciting worlds, canard planes ( exciting) and canard forums (very strange). We may be in parrallel path. I too am looking for a project not too far away from Montreal, Quebec. Actually, I don't know how I missed the one you grabed but would probably have gave you a serious run for your money trying to get it for myself. (Somehow those last sentences do not sound grammatically right. Now you know I mainly speak french).

What you need to know now, (and I know nothing);

-Don't waist time sourcing Divinycell h250 pvc foam for f22 or any  ritical bulk heads, it's now Last-a-foam at ACS. All the other foams are there. Thicknesses and densities have changed a bit from plans but it's negligeable.

- Reinforce/upgrade the main gear alu. extrusions if you can. Marc Zeitling has very good write-ups and customer's repair stories?. Well, pictures I've seen look like real stories anyway!

- Nose lenght is not only (or not at all) for looks. I personnaly don't dislike the short stubby original one, but you need it to balance CG depending on the weight of equipment and their location relative to the actual CG (or simply put: what engine and accessories will be behind the firewall)

-Again my personal opinion; you do not "have" to have a Roncz canard. Many non-Roncz,  GU canard fly with minimum trim change and you should not fly in rain in those vfr purpose aircraft anyway. You may find a used GU faster than make a new one. Care for elevator's weight and balance however.

-Rebuild it simple first. Get it flying safely asap, enjoy it and then consider changing what you don't like in a futur more ambitious project.

I have a huge list of available upgrades and fixes and is finding new one almost every day, but I don't think it's relevant to share here, now.

Kent Ashton knows everything, shares everything and Marc Zeitlin is always right about everything. (This last sentence is to be taken litterally, not the second degree as it would imply sarcasm from my part. The man worked at Scaled Composites among other jobs and specifically worked on land vehicules on which airframes are attached to test aerodynamics. "N'ough said" the guy is extremely competent. Voidhawk9, John Matcho, Ratdog, zolotiyeruki, (sory for those whose name I haven't memorised yet) among many others, I know less about but they share a lot and I know they will answer every question you may have. If they don't, you'll have to  content with my answer and Kent's. Kent Ahston answers everyone!! Amazing ;).

And... if this post works as it should, there will be many replies to contradicts/enhance/criticize every single facts and opinion that I just shared. But in the end you win by saving valuable search time and we newbies learn new stuff. Ain't that a treat?

 I think I made this post too long. Sorry.

Please let's encourage each other especially when I find my own project hopefully before the winter.

Allan

[kaylee s]

Hi Allan!

Thanks for the encouragement and the tips!

I found my project from David Orr's list. He has lots of projects on there. If you have not reached out to him, I'd suggest giving it a shot! 

[Jon Matcho]

On 7/13/2024 at 6:56 PM, kaylee s said:

First post here. I have just purchased Long EZ N97EZ, originally built by Joe Lacour in the 80's. 97EZ went down in a field in 2010 after an engine failure. She's changed hands a few times since then, but nobody has started to rebuild her yet.

Quite an ambitious project to start with, but nothing is impossible. I'm curious where the first Sawzall cut will be, but I'm sure you're going to think on that for a bit. Maybe the roughest area first, but there's no manual for where to begin. Good thing you're a mechanical engineer.

I just reread Kent's original reply after looking at your pictures. You may indeed be better off building from scratch with the "partial kit" you have available, "cannibalizing" as many parts from the project-plane you have while building a new plane. This will also teach you the skills and knowledge you need to do the rebuild you're considering doing right now.

I just took another look at your pictures. Personally, I would build a new Long-EZ for a few reasons:

1. Comparable effort.
2. Unknown damage.
   1. Do you need a new engine mount?
   2. Where are ALL of the cracks?
   3. Are all bulkheads intact?
   4. What looks good, but is now bent and out-of-spec?
3. You already have several parts (new and several used components and fixtures).
4. Opportunity to modernize all systems.
5. It's not an award winner right now.
6. Valuable skills and knowledge to last your entire life.

 

[sixfivelrp]

I am in agreement with starting anew. It is a tough pill to take when you realize the time to fix something is equivalent to just starting from scratch. Ask me how I know these things.
A lot of time can be wasted on figuring out how to correct a problem when one can just follow the directions and build without exercises in frustration. 

[Marc Zeitlin]

19 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

...You may indeed be better off building from scratch with the "partial kit" you have available, "cannibalizing" as many parts from the project-plane you have while building a new plane...

With all due respect to the folks claiming that you can build a plane from scratch in the same or less time than it would take to rebuild this one, that's nonsense. Other than Kent, none of the folks responding have built a Long-EZ, much less repaired a severely damaged one, nor do they work on these planes for a living, repairing multiple aircraft damaged as much as this one.

Depending upon the exact level of damage, which is a bit hard to discern from your pictures but basically seems to be restricted to the lower wingtips, the nose, and I ASSUME the landing gear attachment area, you've got maybe 500 - 1000 hours of work total in front of you. Building a new plane is 3X - 5X that.

Putting on new lower winglets is two weekends. Repairing the nose structure is a couple of months. Repairing the landing gear mounting structure is another couple of months. Replacing the IP, electrical system, etc. is a few more months. Give the whole process a year and a half, if you can work on it a reasonable amount every week.

There are certainly airplanes I've inspected where the damage (or just crappy build quality) indicated that a chainsaw was the correct remediation and building new would be faster and higher quality than a repair. This plane is most certainly NOT one of those.

[kaylee s]

Thanks Marc! I'm hoping for an 18 month project!

She arrived today! There's some parts of the fuselage that are better than I feared. And some that are worse. The sides appear fully intact behind the f22 bulkhead. Strakes are sealed and appear ok at first glance. The biggest surprise is the belly. I think the whole belly between the back of the airbrake to the firewall will need to be rebuilt. Longerons appear ok.

My Long EZ friends are going to come take a look soon for the "real" inspection!

[Jon Matcho]

Your response quotes my prior comment for its context:

On 7/18/2024 at 1:05 PM, Jon Matcho said:

You may indeed be better off building from scratch with the "partial kit" you have available, "cannibalizing" as many parts from the project-plane you have while building a new plane.

And your reply...

On 7/19/2024 at 8:46 AM, Marc Zeitlin said:

With all due respect to the folks claiming that you can build a plane from scratch in the same or less time than it would take to rebuild this one, that's nonsense.

Who is "claiming" what? What are these "claims" you speak of? Seems more like genuine thoughts and opinions.

I did use the word "comparable", which does not mean "same" or "less". Regardless, it's not "nonsense" at all considering most are builders here.

On 7/19/2024 at 8:46 AM, Marc Zeitlin said:

Other than Kent, none of the folks responding have built a Long-EZ, much less repaired a severely damaged one, nor do they work on these planes for a living,

Ah, the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

On 7/19/2024 at 8:46 AM, Marc Zeitlin said:

...you've got maybe 500 - 1000 hours of work total in front of you.

Who's work? How can you possibly estimate for anyone else's progress other than your own?

Again, other's replies that favor building new are not at all "nonsense", particularly when considering the "new" route may be the best path to completion based on available time, budget, desire for quality, current skills, and any available help from others. 

On 7/19/2024 at 10:28 PM, kaylee s said:

My Long EZ friends are going to come take a look soon for the "real" inspection!

Nice! I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to hear all about it.

[Marc Zeitlin]

2 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

Who is "claiming" what? What are these "claims" you speak of? Seems more like genuine thoughts and opinions.

In post #2:

On 7/15/2024 at 10:01 AM, Kent Ashton said:

... I would say it will turn out to be more work than building from scratch...

And further down, Fritz said:

On 7/18/2024 at 7:33 PM, sixfivelrp said:

It is a tough pill to take when you realize the time to fix something is equivalent to just starting from scratch.

Those posts are what I was referring to. These are "claims" that the rebuild will take as long or longer than starting from scratch. And that's what I was disputing.

2 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

Ah, the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

Most of the time, I'd agree with you on this, but this is not an appeal to authority - it's an appeal to experience. I have approximately 18,000 - 20,000 hours working on over 100 different canard aircraft, 7K - 8K on my own planes, and the rest on other folks' aircraft. I'd suggest that that's substantially more time and experience than pretty much anyone else here (and more than the vast majority of the canard community - there might be 5 - 10 other folks with equivalent experience).

Does that experience guarantee that I'm right? No - of course not. But it does mean that I PROBABLY know more about what's involved with pretty much everything on the plane, including major repairs, than almost anyone else.

2 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

Who's work? How can you possibly estimate for anyone else's progress other than your own?

I can do so because in my experience in working with many other people on their aircraft and reviewing their builds, I know approximately what the mean and standard deviation of builder capabilities is. The 500 - 1000 hour estimate was a 1 - 2 sigma estimate. Some folks might be faster and some might be slower, but the majority will be in that range. Again, could I be wrong? Of course. But that's how I'd bet. On what experience do you lean for your estimates of how long builds/repairs will take?

2 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

Again, other's replies that favor building new are not at all "nonsense", particularly when considering the "new" route may be the best path to completion based on available time, budget, desire for quality, current skills, and any available help from others. 

You're right that "nonsense" might have been too strong a word. However, "incorrect" wouldn't have been. Building a new Long-EZ is a 2500 - 4000 hour job (for those that actually put the time and effort into building, rather than just talking about building), while the repairs here are guaranteed to be far less than that (see the estimate above), unless talking and noodling is all that Kaylee is going to do, which is not what it sounds like.

Only about 10% - 20% of new builds ever get completed. Repairs to this plane have a far higher probability of completion than that, hence my recommendation.

[Jon Matcho]

7 hours ago, Marc Zeitlin said:

...but this is not an appeal to authority - it's an appeal to experience.

Which is otherwise known as the Appeal to Accomplishment fallacy.

Granted, you have much more experience than the vast majority, but that does not invalidate everyone else's opinions, feedback, and gut reactions. It's entirely unnecessary to lead with "nonsense" and implicit disparagement. Why not just give your take as your credentials are just a click away? Having known you for years I continue to be perplexed by your tact.

7 hours ago, Marc Zeitlin said:

On what experience do you lean for your estimates of how long builds/repairs will take?

It's based on personal experience, which includes having done a fair share of building from plans, and composite repairs for myself and others on previously flying (and now flying) airplanes. I certainly do not have your experience, but I do have a clue, inkling, or gut feels on these subjects. I am comfortable knowing the pace of work with plans-building, and most important to me is that I know all structures are high quality and light. Completing this project will result in a heavier airframe than prior (and perhaps gross weight when compared to other Long-EZs), and with a non-zero chance that an important defect makes it through (unknown unknowns).

I'm not disagreeing with you on the time. Since your estimated hours are in the same magnitude, both routes are "comparable" and should be considered before spending the equivalent of a work-year on anything.

7 hours ago, Marc Zeitlin said:

Only about 10% - 20% of new builds ever get completed. Repairs to this plane have a far higher probability of completion than that, hence my recommendation.

Indeed, a noteworthy point, along with the other points you've made (albeit more difficult to absorb with the unnecessary and distracting commentary).

[sixfivelrp]

Speaking for myself, I don’t ever feel disparaged by others commentary. Sometimes gross generalizations I make might need a bit context or nuance. I think it is a necessary process to have as much input and varied perspectives to come to the best decisions. 
Additionally trying to formulate a response is work enough let alone having to worry about the wording so that no one feels insulted. I think we all want our community to be successful in their endeavors. 
We have a bit of catching up to do with the 10,000 plus flying tin cans. 😜